Возможно, пригодится не только мне одному (полная версия по клику).
Как всегда, предложения и исправления только приветствуются.
Я раздумывал над староанглийским и Общим, а попутно сделал древо человеческих языков Средиземья (вернее запада и севера), как они описаны в двенадцатом томе Истории Средиземья.
Возможно, пригодится не только мне одному (полная версия по клику).
Как всегда, предложения и исправления только приветствуются.
Возможно, пригодится не только мне одному (полная версия по клику).
Как всегда, предложения и исправления только приветствуются.
Все цитаты сверху вниз:
"This gave rise to the theory (a probable one) that in the unrecorded past some of the languages of Men - including the language of the dominant element in the Atani from which Adunaic was derived - had been influenced by Khuzdul." [HoME, XII]
"they [Folk of Hador] were akin to the Folk of Beor, as was shown by their speech. It needed no lore of tongues to perceive that their languages were closely related, for although they could understand one another only with difficulty they had very many words in common." [HoME, XII]
"The language of the Folk of Haleth, so far as it was later known, appears to have been unrelated (unless in remote origin) and unintelligible to the other two peoples." [HoME, XII]
"The Adunaic of Numenor was mainly derived from that of the most powerful and numerous people of 'the House of Hador'. This was related to the speech of Beor's people who first entered Beleriand[...]: communication between the two peoples was possible but imperfect, mainly because of phonetic changes in the Beorian dialect." [HoME, XII]
"the native speech of the Númenoreans remained for the most part their ancestral Mannish tongue, the Adûnaic, and to this in the latter days of their pride their kings and lords returned" [LoTR, RK, Appendice F]
"The Atani had learned the Sindarin tongue in Beleriand and most of them, especially the high men and the learned, had spoken it familiarly, even among themselves: but always as a learned language, taught in early childhood; their native language remained the Adunaic, the Mannish tongue of the Folk of Hador" [HoME, XII]
"both the Númenóreans and the Men of Eriador spoke words of welcome and greeting in their own tongues, as if addressing friends and kinsmen after a long parting. At first they were disappointed, for neither side could understand the other; but when they mingled in friendship they found that they shared very many words still clearly recognisable, and others that could be understood with attention, and they were able to converse haltingly about simple matters." [UT, Aldarion and Erendis, note 3]
"Thus many of the forest-dwellers of the shorelands south of the Ered Luin, especially in Minhiriath, were as later historians recognized the kin of the Folk of Haleth [...] In the Third Age their survivors were the people known in Rohan as the Dunlendings." [HoME, XII]
"The Faithful, therefore, used Sindarin, and in that tongue devised all names of places that they gave anew in-Middle-earth. Adunaic was abandoned to unheeded change and corruption as the language of daily life, and the only tongue of the unlettered. All men of high lineage and all those who were taught to read and write used Sindarin, even as a daily tongue among themselves. In some families, it is said, Sindarin became the native tongue, and the vulgar tongue of Adunaic origin was only learned casually as it was needed." [HoME, XII]
"There Adûnaic was spoken, and mingled with many words of the languages of lesser men it became a Common Speech that spread thence along the coasts among all that had dealings with Westernesse." [LoTR, RK, Appendix F]
"The spread of the Westron had been at first due largely to the Dunedain themselves; for in the Dark Years they had often visited again the shores of Middle-earth, and in the days of their great voyages before the Downfall they had made many fortresses and havens for the help of their ships. One of the greatest of these had been at Pelargir above the Mouths of Anduin, and it is said that it was the language of that region (which was afterwards called Gondor) that was the foundation of the Common Speech." [HoME, XII]
"Thus it came about that as the Numenorean settlements increased in power and extent and made contact with Men of Middle-earth (many of whom came under Numenorean rule and swelled their population) the 'vulgar tongue' began to spread far and wide as a lingua franca among peoples of many different kinds. This process began in the end of the Second Age, but became of general importance mainly after the Downfall and the establishment of the 'Realms in Exile' in Arnor and Gondor. [...]
Within the original bounds of the Kingdoms the 'vulgar speech' soon became the current speech, and eventually the native language of nearly all the inhabitants of whatever origin, and incomers who were allowed to settle within the bounds adopted it." [HoME, XII]
"the tongue of the Mark of Rohan was derived from a northern speech which, belonging at first to the Middle Anduin, had later moved north to the upper waters of that river, before coming south in the days of Eorl. It was thus nearly akin to the language of the lower Anduin, the basis of the C.S., but isolated in the North it had changed far less and had remained little mingled with alien words". [HoME, XII]
"The language they spoke when they [Hobbits] entered Eriador was evidently adopted from the Men of the Vales of Anduin (related to Atani, in particular to those of of the House of Beor [> of the Houses of Hador and of Beor]; and after their adoption of the Common Speech they retained many words of that origin." [HoME, XII]
"since the language of Rohann and of Dale were akin, that of Rohann closely akin in origin to the Common Speech, it seemed plain that having converted all C.S. into English the more northerly (archaic and less blended) tongues must be represented in the same way. The language of Men in Dale has thus been given (so far as its names show) a Norse cast; and since as has been said the Dwarves adapt their names and speech to those of Men among whom they live, all the Dwarves of the North have names of this Northern type" [HoME, XII]
"This gave rise to the theory (a probable one) that in the unrecorded past some of the languages of Men - including the language of the dominant element in the Atani from which Adunaic was derived - had been influenced by Khuzdul." [HoME, XII]
"they [Folk of Hador] were akin to the Folk of Beor, as was shown by their speech. It needed no lore of tongues to perceive that their languages were closely related, for although they could understand one another only with difficulty they had very many words in common." [HoME, XII]
"The language of the Folk of Haleth, so far as it was later known, appears to have been unrelated (unless in remote origin) and unintelligible to the other two peoples." [HoME, XII]
"The Adunaic of Numenor was mainly derived from that of the most powerful and numerous people of 'the House of Hador'. This was related to the speech of Beor's people who first entered Beleriand[...]: communication between the two peoples was possible but imperfect, mainly because of phonetic changes in the Beorian dialect." [HoME, XII]
"the native speech of the Númenoreans remained for the most part their ancestral Mannish tongue, the Adûnaic, and to this in the latter days of their pride their kings and lords returned" [LoTR, RK, Appendice F]
"The Atani had learned the Sindarin tongue in Beleriand and most of them, especially the high men and the learned, had spoken it familiarly, even among themselves: but always as a learned language, taught in early childhood; their native language remained the Adunaic, the Mannish tongue of the Folk of Hador" [HoME, XII]
"both the Númenóreans and the Men of Eriador spoke words of welcome and greeting in their own tongues, as if addressing friends and kinsmen after a long parting. At first they were disappointed, for neither side could understand the other; but when they mingled in friendship they found that they shared very many words still clearly recognisable, and others that could be understood with attention, and they were able to converse haltingly about simple matters." [UT, Aldarion and Erendis, note 3]
"Thus many of the forest-dwellers of the shorelands south of the Ered Luin, especially in Minhiriath, were as later historians recognized the kin of the Folk of Haleth [...] In the Third Age their survivors were the people known in Rohan as the Dunlendings." [HoME, XII]
"The Faithful, therefore, used Sindarin, and in that tongue devised all names of places that they gave anew in-Middle-earth. Adunaic was abandoned to unheeded change and corruption as the language of daily life, and the only tongue of the unlettered. All men of high lineage and all those who were taught to read and write used Sindarin, even as a daily tongue among themselves. In some families, it is said, Sindarin became the native tongue, and the vulgar tongue of Adunaic origin was only learned casually as it was needed." [HoME, XII]
"There Adûnaic was spoken, and mingled with many words of the languages of lesser men it became a Common Speech that spread thence along the coasts among all that had dealings with Westernesse." [LoTR, RK, Appendix F]
"The spread of the Westron had been at first due largely to the Dunedain themselves; for in the Dark Years they had often visited again the shores of Middle-earth, and in the days of their great voyages before the Downfall they had made many fortresses and havens for the help of their ships. One of the greatest of these had been at Pelargir above the Mouths of Anduin, and it is said that it was the language of that region (which was afterwards called Gondor) that was the foundation of the Common Speech." [HoME, XII]
"Thus it came about that as the Numenorean settlements increased in power and extent and made contact with Men of Middle-earth (many of whom came under Numenorean rule and swelled their population) the 'vulgar tongue' began to spread far and wide as a lingua franca among peoples of many different kinds. This process began in the end of the Second Age, but became of general importance mainly after the Downfall and the establishment of the 'Realms in Exile' in Arnor and Gondor. [...]
Within the original bounds of the Kingdoms the 'vulgar speech' soon became the current speech, and eventually the native language of nearly all the inhabitants of whatever origin, and incomers who were allowed to settle within the bounds adopted it." [HoME, XII]
"the tongue of the Mark of Rohan was derived from a northern speech which, belonging at first to the Middle Anduin, had later moved north to the upper waters of that river, before coming south in the days of Eorl. It was thus nearly akin to the language of the lower Anduin, the basis of the C.S., but isolated in the North it had changed far less and had remained little mingled with alien words". [HoME, XII]
"The language they spoke when they [Hobbits] entered Eriador was evidently adopted from the Men of the Vales of Anduin (related to Atani, in particular to those of of the House of Beor [> of the Houses of Hador and of Beor]; and after their adoption of the Common Speech they retained many words of that origin." [HoME, XII]
"since the language of Rohann and of Dale were akin, that of Rohann closely akin in origin to the Common Speech, it seemed plain that having converted all C.S. into English the more northerly (archaic and less blended) tongues must be represented in the same way. The language of Men in Dale has thus been given (so far as its names show) a Norse cast; and since as has been said the Dwarves adapt their names and speech to those of Men among whom they live, all the Dwarves of the North have names of this Northern type" [HoME, XII]
Я продолжил прорабатывать эту тему на специализированном форуме; к сожалению, все очень быстро превратилось в уютненький срачик, но сказано было немало интересного, вдруг кому-то захочется посмотреть:
Человеческие языки Средиземья.
Добавлено:
А вот над чем я ломаю голову:
В корпусе текстов есть некоторое количество языков, которые мы употребляем исключительно закавычив, пусть для примера это будет "староанглийский", со всеми полагающимися оговорками про "язык, который передан при переводе староанглийским, потому что он отстоит от Вестрона приблизительно так же, как староанглийский от английского", но есть и просто староанглийский - настоящий, безо всяких кавычек. На этом языке писал и делал переводы Элфвин во время своего пребывания на Тол-Эрессеа. И это было очень важно, потому что нолдо Тол-Эрессеа староанглийский _понимали_, а значит понимали и Элфвина, и это было возможно потому, что его язык был близок к одному из знакомых им наречий времен первой эпохи. То есть по-настоящему близок, как настоящий живой язык. Это все разумеется архаизм, оставшийся со времен изобретения мифологии Англии, но вся традиция передачи корпуса легендарных текстов по прямой линии Пенголод-Элфвин держится именно на этом архаизме: Пенголод и Элфвин могли свободно общаться между собой на староанглийском, это очень важно.
Это как минимум все серьезно запутывает, но это полбеды.
Дальше начинаются настоящие проблемы. Концепция языка, родственного современного автору английскому, используемого как интерпретация "настоящего" языка при переводе - это, насколько я знаю, довольно позднее нововведение, включенное приблизительно в то время, когда Толкин готовил приложения для первого издания ВК, то есть году в 53-54. Но работать над текстами Сильмариллиона в традиции Пенголод - Элфвин он продолжал как минимум до начала шестидесятых, если не дальше. То есть с одной стороны он указывает, что английский, старый или новый, появился только в переводе, а с другой тут же работал над текстом, где староанглийский был языком общения. Ну и в принципе: если он сорок лет писал, имея в голове какую-то одну языковую картину, и только в последнее десятилетие поменял свое мнение, то следы предыдущего варианта обязаны были сохраниться, особенно в черновиках, написанных до вот этого вот радикального перелома. И они сохранились, мы их видим.
А по этой первоначальной концепции эльфийские языки, кажется, стояли у истоков самых настоящих, незакавыченных германских языков. Более того, эльфийский кирт по всей видимости должен был послужить источником германских рун. И у нас есть немыслимое множество текста, написанного именно исходя из этих посылок. Более того, кажется практически все, что мы знаем про человеческие языки, написано именно в рамках этой точки зрения.
Тогда с чем нам работать? Как нам это все вообще понимать? Как отличать "староанглийский" от староанглийского? Получится ли найти текстам Элфвина какое-то место в системе поздних мифов или нужно просто иметь это в виду и стараться не вдумываться слишком глубоко?
Человеческие языки Средиземья.
Добавлено:
А вот над чем я ломаю голову:
В корпусе текстов есть некоторое количество языков, которые мы употребляем исключительно закавычив, пусть для примера это будет "староанглийский", со всеми полагающимися оговорками про "язык, который передан при переводе староанглийским, потому что он отстоит от Вестрона приблизительно так же, как староанглийский от английского", но есть и просто староанглийский - настоящий, безо всяких кавычек. На этом языке писал и делал переводы Элфвин во время своего пребывания на Тол-Эрессеа. И это было очень важно, потому что нолдо Тол-Эрессеа староанглийский _понимали_, а значит понимали и Элфвина, и это было возможно потому, что его язык был близок к одному из знакомых им наречий времен первой эпохи. То есть по-настоящему близок, как настоящий живой язык. Это все разумеется архаизм, оставшийся со времен изобретения мифологии Англии, но вся традиция передачи корпуса легендарных текстов по прямой линии Пенголод-Элфвин держится именно на этом архаизме: Пенголод и Элфвин могли свободно общаться между собой на староанглийском, это очень важно.
Это как минимум все серьезно запутывает, но это полбеды.
Дальше начинаются настоящие проблемы. Концепция языка, родственного современного автору английскому, используемого как интерпретация "настоящего" языка при переводе - это, насколько я знаю, довольно позднее нововведение, включенное приблизительно в то время, когда Толкин готовил приложения для первого издания ВК, то есть году в 53-54. Но работать над текстами Сильмариллиона в традиции Пенголод - Элфвин он продолжал как минимум до начала шестидесятых, если не дальше. То есть с одной стороны он указывает, что английский, старый или новый, появился только в переводе, а с другой тут же работал над текстом, где староанглийский был языком общения. Ну и в принципе: если он сорок лет писал, имея в голове какую-то одну языковую картину, и только в последнее десятилетие поменял свое мнение, то следы предыдущего варианта обязаны были сохраниться, особенно в черновиках, написанных до вот этого вот радикального перелома. И они сохранились, мы их видим.
А по этой первоначальной концепции эльфийские языки, кажется, стояли у истоков самых настоящих, незакавыченных германских языков. Более того, эльфийский кирт по всей видимости должен был послужить источником германских рун. И у нас есть немыслимое множество текста, написанного именно исходя из этих посылок. Более того, кажется практически все, что мы знаем про человеческие языки, написано именно в рамках этой точки зрения.
Тогда с чем нам работать? Как нам это все вообще понимать? Как отличать "староанглийский" от староанглийского? Получится ли найти текстам Элфвина какое-то место в системе поздних мифов или нужно просто иметь это в виду и стараться не вдумываться слишком глубоко?